Ballad concert Donna Ray Norton & Melanie Rice Penland

Partial Transcript: Melanie
(00:07:40) Thank you, David. Howdy? Wow, what a crowd.

Donna
Yeah. There are some seats still empty. That’s okay.

Melanie
Yeah. We’ll try not to feel too depressed about the—five seats that are left. (All laughing) Well, it’s a pleasure to be here tonight. Donna and I have been singing ballads together and performing together for a lot of years. And she is just a tad bit—ten years younger than I am, but we still consider ourselves about the same age.

Donna
Young, so young.

Partial Transcript: I’ve been singing on stage since I was three years old. I’m Melanie Penland, and this is Donna Ray Norton. I remember—my first memory of singing on stage is being at the Sodom Laurel Festival that they were having. I was born in 1971, so this would have been about 1974 at the Sodom Laurel Festival, and I remember my mom holding me up in front of a microphone, and I could see the microphone and all these lads.

And she said, “Sing.” (Laughs)—full stop. And I think I did a quick rendition of Mary Had a Little Lamb. But when I was eight, started singing at local festivals, and—the first of which was the Bascom Lamar Lunsford Festival. And I became a professional performer because they paid me twenty-five dollars. (Laughs) I’m going to let Donna—I’m Sheila Kay Adams’ daughter. She is the 2012—13—

Donna
Yeah.

Melanie
—2013 recipient of the National Heritage Award from the Library of Congress. So, she has been recognized throughout the country for passing down ballads—singing ballads. She’s also a banjo player and storyteller. But also, as you heard, I got to sing—hear a lot of the old ballad singers perform. It really kind of has been a performance-based culture, versus a—home, in-your-garden, milking-the-cows kind of culture. Because I certainly don’t have any cows, and I’ll kill any plant that you put me in contact with. But I do do a lot of singing in my car—

Donna
(Laughs) Yeah, me too.

Melanie
And I do a lot of singing on stage. My son is nine, and he knows about three ballads, but he would lie to you and tell you he doesn’t know a word. So, I’m going to let Donna introduce herself. She’s pretty—come from a pretty famous stock herself.

Partial Transcript: My name is Donna Ray Norton, and I am the granddaughter of Byard Ray. David said: “By-ard” and a lot of people say that, but it’s actually “B(y)ard.”—that’s how it’s pronounced. He was a legendary fiddler around the mountains. Do any of you guys who he was? Have you ever heard him playing? Yay for that guy back there. (Laughs) But—he was a legendary fiddler around the mountains. He actually played for the Queen of England when he was alive, and he did a rendition of the bag—of the Scottish bagpipes for her on the fiddle—it’s the most awesome thing ever.

And—he—he’s been to New York, to California. He was in a movie called Zachariah back in the seventies or sixties or something like that. He’s actually picked a little with the Rolling Stones—from what I understand. And they asked him to—well, there’s kids here. I can’t tell you. Never mind. (Laughs) But—they asked him to go on tour with them—with them, and play the fiddle on some of their shows, and he said, “No.” Although he was just lazy—didn’t want to practice. Just wanted to lay around and smoke pot all the time. (Laughs) He did not want to go on tour with the Rolling Stones.

And then, my mother is Lena Jean Ray. She’s a really well-known ballad singer around the area, and she plays the guitar as well. She has since—she—as she calls it, passed her torch onto me. So, she doesn’t really sing that much anymore—she does sometimes. I can drag her out of the house—but most of the time, she’s grana, and keeps my two children for me to come and sing for you all.

I have a daughter who is—well, she’ll be twelve in March. And I have a little boy who is just around six. And he doesn’t know any of the ballads, but he loves to sing. And my daughter actually started singing when she was two—at one of the festivals at the Western Carolina University. And she sang Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. That was her song. But she does know the same as Ezra—a handful of ballads.

She told me, “Mom, I don’t want to do that anymore.” And I was like, “Well, why not?” I can’t really—I can’t be mad at her for it, though, because I didn’t start singing until I was seventeen years old. So—it was just kind of something that I was embarrassed about, and I should have—I guess I should have learned sooner, but I would have really liked to learn something from Byard. That would have been really neat to do that.

But I just felt—my mom and Sheila were teachers at the school that my cousins, Hart and Andrew, Melanie’s brothers, went to. We would have these little concerts in the schools, and Sheila and mom would always be the people performing at these concerts. And it would always be like—they’re singing—whatever they’re singing, and me and Hart and Andrew are in the audience like, “My gosh, this is terrible.” And—

Melanie
I thought it was great to be the folk goddess’ daughter. I mean, you got to go MerleFest. You go backstage, and—

Donna
Yeah, we just wanted to go play. That was all. (Laughs) So, they’d be like, “Hey, Donna Ray, and Hart, and Andrew. They found youse out. Where are Donna Ray, and Hart and Andrew’s moms?” And we’d always be like, “God.” And then, they’d sing.

And so, it was just—it was a little embarrassing for me, but I did love—I did get to hear the ballad-singing in the house a whole lot when I was growing up because mom and Sheila would often go to each other’s houses with a bunch of other ballad singers.

And they would pick and sing, and practice and rehearse, and probably drink a little bit—maybe, I don’t know. (Laughs) But they would always tell us to hush and go in the other room. And some songs, we would definitely not be allowed to be in the room for.

Partial Transcript: I know, right? Back in the early part of the 1900s and—1916 to be exact, Cecil Sharp travelled to the mountains of western North Carolina to record ballads. He was pretty upset—does anybody know who Cecil Sharp is?

Male Speaker
Yeah.

Melanie
(00:16:34) Very nice. He was one of the preeminent collectors of English folk songs and dance. And he met John C. Campbell’s wife, and came here to study the ballads—and actually said that there were in more—they were more preserved in the mountains of western North Carolina than they were actually in England.

And he said that he felt like the culture there was almost one hundred years in the past due to isolation. He was unconvinced initially that the Americas had any folk music or folk dance, or song of any kind, and was—quickly fell in love with the area, and with the people.

And one of the ballads that he collected from my great—mine and Donna’s great, great, great aunt, Mary Sands. Now, Mary Sands was—provided him with the second largest amount of ballads of any singer. She—Jane Gentry from Hot Springs actually collected—he collected over seventy ballads from her. But then, Mary Sands came in a very decent segment at twenty-five.

Donna
Twenty-five—a little over twenty-five.



Melanie
—a little over twenty-five. Imagine yourself as a forty-three-year-old woman finally getting recognized, strangely for the songs that you’ve been singing all of your life. He’s a man from England. He’s come to town with a bunch of Presbyterians to help you out with the schools and hospitals. So—he actually spent three or four days with Mary Sands.

Now, imagine yourself eight and a half months pregnant, doing that, on August 5, 1916. This was number seventy-seven collected by Cecil Sharp from Mary Sands, and it’s called My Dearest Dear. I’d like to start it out, and—in memory of those who would love to be here but cannot—in particular, my grandfather, Evan Adams.

Partial Transcript: My dearest dear, the time draws near when you and I must part
And no one knows the inner grief of my poor aching heart
Oh, what I’ve suffered for your sake, the one I hold so dear
I wish that I could go with you or you might tarry here

I wished your breast was made of glass, and in it I’d behold
My name in secret I would write in letters of bright gold
My name in secret I would write, believe me when I say
You are the one that I love best until my dying day

And when you're on some distant shore, think on your absent friend
And when the wind blows high and clear, a line to me pray send
And when the wind blows high and clear, pray send your love to me
That I may know by your hand-write how times have gone with thee

My Dearest Dear, thank you.

Partial Transcript: Donna
(00:21:02) Well, I don’t know what number any of the songs that I know are, but Melanie probably does. (Laughs) I guess since we’re talking about numbers of songs and when they were learned, I’m just going to start mine off with Young Emily, and that’s the very first ballad that I learned. Well, technically, it was Four Nights Drunk, but I’ll sing—(Laughs)—I’ll sing you the good old—old-fashioned ballad.

Melanie
Now, for a fact, Young Emily was number forty-six that—

Donna
Told you. (Laughs)

Melanie
—that Cecil Sharp collected. He collected it from Jane Gentry on August 25, 1916. And she called it Edwin in the Lowlands Low, but it’s not at all similar to our version, which was collected by Mr. T. Jeff Stockton, in Flat Pond, which is right over the hill from Sodom, and it’s exactly the same—on September 6.

Donna
See? She does have the papers. (Laughs) So, this song—actually, I learned it—it’s the first ballad—technical ballad that I learned. I learned it when I was seventeen years old. I was a senior in high school, and our job was to do a senior exit project. And we had to write a paper and do an oral report, and have some sort of thing that we created, or whatever, for this project.

And—I have—I’m like, “I don’t know. I have no clue what I can even”—like, I had no idea, I was so scared. And she was going around the classroom, and people were picking like graphic design and all the—all these stuff—building—whatever. And I’m like, “My God, I can’t build anything.” And so, as she was going around the room, I was just sitting there thinking to myself, “What do I know a lot about that not a whole lot of people know about?”

And I was like, “Ballad-singing. I know a lot about ballad-singing.” And so, I decided to write my senior exit project on ballad-singing. And she asked me what my thesis was going to be. And I’m like, “Ballad-singing.” And she’s like, “Your thesis is going to be: “The Traditional Ballads of the British Isles as Reflected in Present-Day Southern Appalachian Culture.” So, that was my thesis.

And—I learned the song, Young Emily—or was learning the song, Young Emily, and she decided to tell me that I couldn’t sing a song that was already written by somebody, that I had to write my own. And so, I’m like, “Well, that kind of defeats the purpose. That’s not a ballad. That’s like”—I had a really hard time. So, I wound up—I wrote my own ballad, and—

Melanie
Do you still know that ballad?

Donna
I don’t. (Laughs) I don’t—because I felt like it wasn’t—I couldn’t get credit for it if I sang it with mom and Sheila because it wasn’t real or whatever—I don’t know. I still have the words for it. I don’t know—don’t judge me.

Melanie
(00:24:06) I’m judging your teacher. I’m judging your teacher for making you make up a ballad.

Donna
Well, I actually give her a lot of credit because she made me do something that I was uncomfortable with in front of my classmates. And I went to Asheville High, so it was a really different kind of music than anybody there had heard. And it was—I mean, it was a different thing, but all of my classmates loved it. I made a four on my project, which was high as you could make—it was awesome.

And I actually learned Young Emily in the process because Sheila came to me and said, “Donna Ray, I need you to learn this ballad, and you’re going to go and audition for this movie called Song Catcher. You guys heard of that movie?

Audience
Yeah.

Donna
Okay. Well, I auditioned for the role of Deladis in the Song Catcher. Sheila was helping with the casting and teaching the people the ballads and all that sort of thing, and she said—

Melanie
Because they wanted something authentic.

Donna
(00:24:59) Yeah, they told Sheila, “We want an authentic country girl to play the part of Deladis in the movie.” And Sheila was like, “I know just the young’un. I’ll go get her and have her over here for y’all.” And so, in like three days, I had to learn the script and the words to this ballad, and the tune, and—to learn the tune of a ballad is a very hard thing to do if you don’t—I mean, because I can’t read music. I couldn’t tell you—I don’t know notes, keys, chords—any of that stuff. I had a little help from Mary Eagle learning the tune to this song, but—it’s Young Emily. And I auditioned for the role of Deladis, sang this ballad for them, and they picked a Jewish girl from New York.

(All laughing)

Melanie
Because they wanted something authentic.

Donna
Yeah. So, here I am with you guys.

Melanie
I was too old for the part.

Donna
Not in the Phantom of the Opera—like Amy (inaudible; overlapping talk)


Melanie
Yeah. I just saw a picture of her, actually, in People Magazine, all dressed up to go to the Golden Globes.

Donna
Dang it.

Melanie
It could be you, girl.

Donna
I know. I’m so mad at those guys.

Melanie
(Laughs)

Partial Transcript: Young Emily was a fair maid.
She loved a driver boy
He drove in the main for some gold to gain
Way down in the lowlands low

My father runs a public house
Along yon river side
Go ye, go ye and enter in
And there this night abide

Oh please, don't tell them nothing
Don't ever let them know
That your name it is young Edmund
Who drove in the lowlands low

Young Edmund fell to drinking
Then fell into bed
Little did he know that his sword that night
Would part his neck and head

Young Emily in her chambers
She had an awful dream
She dreamed she saw young Edmund’s blood
Come flowing like a stream

Young Emily rose in the morning
While putting on her clothes
Said I’m going to look for my driver boy
Who drove in the lowlands low

Oh father, my dear father
You've got to let me know
What's happened to my driver boy
Who drove in the lowlands low

Oh daughter, dear daughter
Don't talk so loud and free
His gold is all for us to claim
And his body's in the sea

Oh father, cruel father
You’ll die a public show
For the murdering of my driver boy
Who drove in the lowlands low

See the coach on yonder mountain
A-moving to and fro
It reminds me of my driver boy
Who drove in the lowlands low

My true love's laying in the ocean
The fish swims o'er his breast
His body's in a gentile motion
I pray that his soul's at rest

Young Emily.

Partial Transcript: Melanie
How long ago was that, Donna?

Donna
Gosh. I don’t know—fifteen years? Is this 2015? My gosh, I’ve been graduated from high school for fifteen years.

Melanie
I’ve been graduated for twenty-five, so I don’t know what she’s talking about.

Donna
I’m going to have a sip of this drink here if you want.

Melanie
(Laughs) Yeah, she’s going to try to give that question to me even though it was her thesis.

Donna
(00:30:29) Well, I—back in the day, across the pond—as they call it, I guess, the ballads were a way of spreading messages or news from one town to another. There would be, I guess, on horseback—I mean, how’s—what’s a better way to remember a story than to remember it in a song, or like a rhyming fashion. Right?

Melanie
Uh-huh. And lots of people—for instance, in the 1600s, there was something called the Stationer’s List. And in—the 1600s, a lot of the songs that we sing were actually entered on the list, and it was almost like a copyright. And they would sing—and they would write a broad side which was about the social and political news of the time. And then, they would publish that and make money from it, and only they could do it because they were on this list. I think the role in England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, was more of a news—you had a travelling person. You had a Byard—a Byard.

Donna
Byard.

Melanie
—who would travel around and stay at people’s houses, get to eat, get money, and they would be able to sing their songs and sing their news, and everybody was really looking forward to it because it was like a soap opera. It was like the soap operas of the time. “I can’t wait till my stories get here in two more weeks.”

Donna
Yes, all my children.

Melanie
—all my children, on their way here.

Donna
(Laughs)

Melanie
(00:32:01) But in the end—and it was more of a—you weren’t going to have a woman travelling like that, by themselves, singing for their supper. That just wasn’t something women were allowed to do or were willing to do at the time. When the culture—the songs came here from there, it became more of an at-home kind of thing that was passed down. And not that many new ballads were written except for like Tom Dooley, and some other American ballads, John Henry.

Donna
And the ballad of Nancy Franklin.

Melanie
Yeah. The ballad of Nancy Franklin. (Laughs) That’s awesome. I mean, and—you and Me and Bobby McGee probably could be considered the ballad of today—sort of.

Donna
Uh-huh.

Melanie
(00:32:47) But anyway, once it came here, it became a woman’s tradition, and a lot of the raping, pillaging—kind of man-ballads that had stuck around soon became moral messages—poking fun at men, love lost, cutting off heads and kicking them against the wall. But now, Cecil Sharp himself actually had a preference for the more dramatic bloody ballads. So, a lot of the ones that he chose to collect—and that we sort of still have around today were—were those love songs where you get your head cut off and get it kicked against walls.

Donna
Yes, I’ll sing out one of those here in just a little bit. (All laughing)

Melanie
Did that answer your question? Do you want more—because I got more? (All laughing)

Donna
(00:33:40) And, two, like—I mean, as far as we go in singing, people, I guess, used to sit down and learn to—like knee-to-knee was one of the styles of learning a ballad, where you have an elder who knows all the ballads and stuff, and you’re willing to learn. They come and sit in front of you, and you’re knee-to-knee and you’re facing one another. And the way that you learn that ballad was that they would sing one verse, and you would sing that verse back to them. And they would sing the next verse, and you would sing the first verse and the second verse back to them, and so on and so forth. So, that was the way they learned the ballads back whenever mom and Sheila—and our grandmothers were singing and stuff like that. Now, Melanie—they don’t really do that anymore. (Laughs) So, Melanie and I kind of have to learn by listening to some of Sheila’s CDs or—

Partial Transcript: Male Speaker
(00:37:55) I’m putting you on the spot, Donna Ray. In the last 1960s, your grandpa made an album with—

Donna
O Brilliante.



Male Speaker
And this—White Lightning?

Donna
Yes.

Male Speaker
It was a precursor to that movie you talked about.

Donna
Yes.

Male Speaker
I lost my copy. Where can I get another one?

Donna
Boy, well, I—actually, I don’t even know if we have one. I think mom probably has.

Melanie
Sharon has one.

Donna
Yeah, and mom probably has a record.

Male Speaker
Can I borrow it?

Donna
(00:38:24) I don’t know. I might have to pry that from mom—

Melanie
How about eBay?

Donna
They might have one on eBay.

Male Speaker
Well, I—

Donna
I was actually looking on YouTube the other night and found a whole bunch of videos—of his recordings, but Troy Harris, actually, might be able to help me—

Melanie
Harrison.

Donna
Harrison, sorry. Troy—I’m very bad with names. But Troy actually might be able to help me help you locate a copy of that. He actually has made me several copies of his CDs that I hadn’t—that I didn’t even know anything like that existed. You do, awesome?

(Inaudible; distant from mic)

Melanie
Okay. So, you come down here and get with her and sing—

Male Speaker
Raise your hand so I can see you. Okay.

Donna
(Laughs)

Melanie
Also, you could probably get a—get a copy of the recording from the Library of Congress.

Donna
(Laughs)

Melanie
Any other question?

Donna
There—she has a question. Yeah?

Female Speaker
(00:39:18) When you were like sitting with your parents and your grandparents, did you ever forget the verses?

Donna
Yes, I still forget—

Melanie
In fact, I plan on forgetting words later on in the show.

Donna
Yeah, I’m probably going to forget some tonight as a matter of fact. That’s why we have our words over here. And I’m—I’m still learning a couple of news ones, too, so—I know the tune to the song, but I don’t know the actual words to it. And—so, I might just sing y’all a couple off the paper if you’re okay with that.

Melanie
(00:39:45) There was actually a recording—how old are you?

Female Speaker
I’m ten.

Melanie
Ten. When I was eight and I was at the Bascom Lamar Lunsford Festival in Mars Hill, they have a recording of the ballad singers on stage. And I totally messed up. Because in Jerusalem Moan—you were sort of talking about religions, we sing—we close out with that one.

Donna
Yeah, it’s awesome.

Melanie
And it says: “It was a Catholic priest. You can tell him by his coat.” And I said: (singing) “There’s a Catholic preacher.” And my mom says, “Priest.” “They don’t have preachers?” (All laughing) And mom said, “No, they have priests.” I mean, so I just started right off—so, yes.

Donna
Yes.

Melanie
A constant state of messing up still to this day.

Donna
And what’s terrifying is when you’re up here by yourself and you don’t have anybody else with you—and you don’t have any musical accompaniment and you forget the words—and you just totally draw blank and you’re like, “Well.”

Melanie
Sometimes, you’re like, “I can’t remember none of the words.”

Donna
“Well, we’ll move on the next one.” That’s happened several times, also.

Melanie
Yeah, all the time.

Donna
(00:40:54) Yeah. But usually, there’s—we do a thing with a bunch of ballad singers, which is really cool. It’s called a Round Robin.

Melanie
Or a Ballad Swop.



Donna
A Ballad Swop, yeah. And there’ll be a bunch of ballad singers all in one area. At the Bascom Lamar Lunsford Festival, we did that at the Heritage Day. It’s super awesome, and you guys should go. It’s so much fun. But we get—me and Melanie get a fuss at a whole lot at that thing, because—

Melanie
We’re not allowed to sit together.

Donna
No, they make—they split us because we talk too much to one another.

Melanie
We slipped in there this time.

Donna
Yeah, we did. We did sit beside each other. But if you’re singing and you forget the words during that happening, then you have like five other people that would pick up right where you left off, and then, you’re like, “Yeah.”

Melanie
Unless they get in an argument about which version you’re singing.

Donna
No, now that. “Jeez, you’re singing (inaudible) version, and you’re trying to tell her what Cas’ version was.”

Melanie
And Bobby McMillon bringing up some Arkansas ballad singer that sang Cinderella.

Donna
And then, we’re like, “No, Bobby. This is western North Carolina.” We have a funny story about Bobby McMillon.

Melanie
You tell it.

Donna
(00:41:54) Well, Bobby was in the hospital, and I think—didn’t we go—we went to go visit Bobby—

Melanie
In the hospital.



Donna
—in the hospital. And—see, this is the thing about ballad singers—we like to tell funny stories, too. And all the older ballad singers have all these wonderful stories because they were around all the awesome people that we didn’t get to grow up with.

Melanie
And we just have to tell stories about them.

Donna
We have to make our own, and tell stories about them. So, we went to—

Melanie
And a lot of them, we can’t tell in mixed company. (Laughs)

Donna
Yeah. We went to see Bobby in the hospital, and we went up to his room and he wasn’t in there.

Melanie
(Laughs)

Donna
Yeah, we went into his room and he wasn’t in there. And we were like, “My God.” We were so freaking out thinking that he had passed away or something. And—and we—I guess, he finally came back in there.

Melanie
We thought—we thought that he was at an X-ray or something, and we went and laid up in his bed. (Laughs) Until they finally came and told us that he wasn’t—

Donna
We had left or something—he got discharged. Sheila called like in the middle of this whole—in the middle of this whole thing, and she’s like, “What’s going on?” And we’re like, “We’re up here to see Bobby, but he’s gone.” That was the wrong—

Melanie
“He’s gone.”

Donna
“My God!” And she as on the phone, and Melanie’s like, “No.” She was like, “My God, Bobby’s gone.” And we were like, “No, no, wait.” So, we—

Melanie
“Not gone, he’s just gone.”



Donna
So, we were like, “Yeah, we forget that you’re older than us. We need to word stuff differently.” (Laughs) It was really hilarious.

Melanie
Mom—yeah (inaudible; overlapping talk)

Donna
Yeah. It was great. What do you want to sing? A funny one, or what are you going to sing next? I’ll sing a funny one.

Melanie
I was hoping you’d sing a funny one. But we had another question.

Donna
Yay, questions.

Female Speaker
(00:43:42) Besides being a narrative song, what other characteristics make a ballad a ballad?

Melanie
Age.

Donna
Yeah. Yeah—like I said, the new writing, no. That doesn’t—that’s not a ballad.

Female Speaker
It’s not the structure of the lines?

Melanie
No, it’s not like Haiku. It doesn’t have a set—in fact, it’s all really up to the ballad singer. If you noticed that Donna and I close our eyes when we sing. And there’s that little inflexion at the end of our—at the end of our—the sentences in the song. That it absolutely—it’s about—it’s about the ballad, not the balladeer. And so, we are—we close our eyes, and we’re inside the song. When Donna sings Young Emily, I close my eyes, and I can see Dellie Chandler Norton singing that as clear as a bell. And in the very last vision where the—the—

Donna
“Coach on yonder mountain”—

Melanie
No, I like the very last one.

Donna
The “True love’s laying in the ocean.”

Melanie
—laying in the ocean. The fish swim o’er its breast. His body’s in a gentle motion. I pray that his soul’s at rest.” I mean, that’s ethno-poetry. But no, we have our own cadence. We have our own way we sing.

Donna
Yeah, every—everybody that sings them is totally different. It’s—it’s—some—and another thing about the story—the stories coming overseas is that—like certain ballad singers have certain songs that are their songs, and you’re not allowed to sing those songs when they’re—

Melanie
—in their company.

Donna
Yeah. And so, you’re like, “I only know like five songs. What am I going to sing now?” (Laughs)

Melanie
Black is the Color is mine.

Donna
Yeah. It is now. Actually, my Aunt Evelyn was the one—that was her signature song. And Melanie sings it. Are you going to sing that now?

Melanie
I’ll sing that now.

Donna
But yeah—

Melanie
(00:45:36) (Laughs) This was a song that I did not learn for many years due to the fact that I felt like I didn’t have the pipes for it. Because Evelyn Ramsey was one of the strongest, most incredibly powerful singers from Sodom. So, I was always a little worried about not being able to sing like her. This was collected by Cecil Sharp, number eighty-five, by Lizzy Roberts from Hot Springs, North Carolina, on September 15, 1916. And then, later by Joan Baez.

Donna
That’s—my momma loves her.

Melanie
—Joan Baez during the Folk Revival which I’ll—I could talk more about if y’all have lots of time ad nauseam.

Donna
(Laughs)

Melanie
I’ll—I always dedicate this to Joe because—Joe Freeman, his wife died, and he put: “Black is the Color of my True Love’s Hair,” on her tombstone.

Donna
He’s an awesome guy.

Melanie
He owns Zuma Coffee in—

Donna
Marshall.

Melanie
—Marshall, if you all are ever down there.

Partial Transcript: Oh holy day, oh holy day
The first day of the year
Little Mathey Groves to church did go
Some holy words to hear, hear some holy words to hear

The first come down is dressed in red,
The next come down in green
The next come down’s Lord Daniel’s wife
As fine as any queen, queen fine as any queen

She stepped up to little Mathey Groves
Her eyes cast on the ground
Saying, please oh please come with me stay,
As you pass through this town, town as you pass through this town

I cannot stay, I dare not stay
For I fear ‘twill cost my life.
For I can see by your finger-rings
That you are Lord Daniel’s wife, wife, you’re Lord Daniel’s wife.

Lord Daniel’s in some distant land
He’s left me for to roam
He’s taken all his merry men
And I am quite alone, ‘lone, and I am quite alone.

Oh please oh please come with me stay
I’ll hide you out of sight
I’ll pleasure you beyond compare
And sleep with you the night, night, I’ll sleep with you the night.

Her little footy-page was a-standing nearby
Was hearing every word was said
He said, “Before the sun goes down
Lord Daniel’ll know what’s said, said, Lord Daniel’ll know what’s said.

He ran along the king’s highway
He swam beneath the tide
And before the sun went down that night
He was a-standing by Daniel’s side, side, a-standing by Daniel’s side.

What news, what news, my little footy-page
What news do you bring to me?
My tenants wronged, my castle burned,
My wife with a baby? ‘by, my wife with a baby?

No harm has come to your house nor lands
While you have been away
But little Mathey Groves is a-hugging and a-kissing
On your fair lady gay, gay, on your fair lady gay.

If what you say is not the truth
And false as false can be,
I’ll build a scaffold tower so high,
And hang-ed you will be, be, yes, hang-ed you will be.

If what I say is not the truth
And false as false can be
You need not build a scaffold tower,
Just hang me from a tree, tree, just hang me from a tree.

Lord Daniel called his merry men
And bid them with him go,
But warned them not a word to speak,
And not a horn to blow. Blow, yes, not a horn to blow.

But riding with his merry men
Was one who’d wish no ill,
He put his bugle to mouth
And he blew both loud and shrill. Shrill, he blew it loud and shrill.

“What’s this, what’s this?” cried little Mathey Groves
As he sat up in bed,
I fear it is your husband’s men
And I will soon be dead. Dead, and I will soon be dead.

Oh lay back down, little Mathey Groves
And keep my back from cold
It’s nothing but my father’s men,
Calling their sheep to fold. Fold, calling their sheep to fold.

So, little Mathey Groves he lay back down
And soon fell off to sleep,
When he woke up Lord Daniel was
A-standing at his bed feet. Feet, a-standing at his bed feet.

Saying, “How do you like my snow-white pillow?”
Saying, “How do you like my sheet?”
Saying, “How do you like my pretty little woman
That’s a-laying in your arms asleep?” ‘Sleep, a-laying in your arms asleep?

Very well do I like your snow-white pillow,
Very well do I like your sheet.
Much better do I like this pretty little woman
That’s a-laying in my arms asleep. ‘Sleep, a-laying in my arms asleep.

“Get up, get up,” Lord Daniel cried,
And go put on your clothes
In England it shall never be said
That I killed a naked man. Man, that I killed a naked man.

I won’t get up, I can’t get up
For I fear ‘twill cost my life,
For you have got two bitter swords,
And I ain’t got a knife. Knife, and I ain’t got a knife.

I know I’ve got two bitter swords,
They cost me deep in the purse.
I’ll give to you the best of them,
And I will keep the worst. Worst, and I will keep the worst.

The first swing that little Mathey made,
It hurt Lord Daniel sore
The next swing that Lord Daniel made,
Little Mathey hit the floor. Floor, little Mathey hit the floor.

Get up, get up my pretty little bride,
And come sit on my knee.
And tell me which you like the best,
Little Mathey Groves or me. Me, little Mathey Groves or me.

She looked up in Lord Daniel’s face
And saw his jutting chin,
Said, “I wouldn’t trade little Mathey Groves
For you and all your kin.” Kin, for you and all your kin.

He took her by her lily-white hand
And he led her across the hall,
Then he pulled out his sword and he cut off her head,
And he kicked it against the wall. Wall, he kicked it against the wall.

Go dig me a grave both wide and deep
To bury these two in
Just kick little Mathey over the side
But lower my sweet wife in. In, yes, lower my sweet wife in.

Partial Transcript: Female Speaker
(01:12:25) I have a question—another one: where are you—how many young people around your age are still doing this?

Donna
Well, from around where we’re from, you’re looking—here’s looking at you, kin.

Melanie
Donna has some sisters.

Donna
I do have some sisters. They sing—

Melanie
Half-sisters.



Donna
Half-sisters, yes, they are half-sisters. They’re my dad’s kids from his first marriage. They’re not my mother’s children. But yeah, they sing sometimes also. I also have a niece that sometimes sings, but it’s not like a—Melanie and I love to go places and sing together. We feed off of each other very well on stage. We cut up, and the audience laughs with us, and we think that we make a pretty good team doing this. We choose to travel together and do our little thing.

Melanie
Donna is the one that gets me out of Sodom. I still live on the old home place.

Donna
Indeed, she does. I’m like, “You’re coming.” She’s like, “It’s going to snow tonight.” I’m like, “No, it’s not. And if it does, you can stay at my house.” I live in—

Melanie
And poor David tried to email me forever. And I’m like, “I have to go to the library to get on a computer.”

Donna
Sodom is still not—modern. It’s very—she’s got a question again.

Female Speaker
(01:13:49) Do you ever play with music?

Melanie
Only if we have to.

Donna
I don’t—if I do karaoke.

Melanie
Yeah, karaoke’s good.

Donna
And in the car. But I have—honestly have no clue how to sing with music at all.

Melanie
You ain’t woman enough to take my—my karaoke pick.

Donna
I’m a Dixie Chicks’ fan. I like singing their songs and Miranda Lambert. But I think that—I actually did a show—well, not really a show—I was in a play that Tom Godlewski wrote. And I played the part of his mother, I think, or his aunt. And all I did was come out and sing a ballad, but they put fiddle music with it. It was ruined. I ruined it. It sounded terrible, and I—



Melanie
We don’t know when to come in, and we don’t know when you’re supposed to—timing, because we don’t do timing.

Donna
Yeah, it’s—no—I mean, I literally can say it was the worst. I sounded horrible. I was so upset after—and I did it for three nights. I had to go—

Partial Transcript: O, there was an old farmer lived over the hill
An' if he ain't dead, he's a livin' there still
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

Well, the devil stepped up the old man on plough
Said, one of your people I’m-a taking right now
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

The farmer said, Oh, I’ve come undone
You’ve come to get my only son,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

It ain’t your son or your gal I crave
Your old scoldin’ wife and her, I’ll have
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

Well, welcome sweet Satan from the bottom of my heart,
I hope you and her never more shall part
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

Well, he stuffed her in an old tow sack,
He looked like a camel with a hump on his back,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

Well, he sat her down at the fork of the road,
Said, get down woman, you’re a hell of a load,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

Then he carried her up to the gates of hell,
Said, poke up a fire, boys’ll roast her well,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day.

Six little demons a-sitting on the wall,
She grabbed a poker and she thrashed them all,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

Along came a little demon dragging his chain,
She grabbed it up and she smashed out his brain,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

She grabbed ol’ Satan by the hair of the head,
Said, I’d-a done killed you if you weren’t done dead,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

The littlest demon spoke up and said,
You better take her back, daddy, or we’ll all be dead,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

Well, the farmer saw him coming and he bit his tongue,
Broke for the woods in a flat out run,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

He’s heard—he say as he run o’er the hill,
If the devil won’t have her, I’ll be damned if I will,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

Said, I’ve been the devil for all of my life,
But I’ve never been to hell till I met your wife,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

The children said, “What, Lord, we sure is cursed,”
For she went to hell and she come back worse,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

Well, this just goes to show the women are better than the men,
For we can go to hell and come back again,
Singing fi-fi-deddle-a-fa-di-la-deddle all day

(Applause)
Donna
(01:29:59) That song is so one of my favorites because that is exactly how the women in Sodom are. (All laughing) Exactly. Like, if there weren’t—

Melanie
We ain’t messing around on that.

Donna
No, literally. Like, the first curse words I heard were from my grandmother, and I can’t say because there’s kids in here. But—it was—it was pretty funny, but that’s exactly how my grandmother thought. “I’d-a done killed you if you weren’t done dead.” Yeah, that’s how SK is starting to sound, too.

Partial Transcript: Well, the Mountain culture is very matriarchal, contrary to popular belief. The men did little work. They were basically useless.

Donna
Yeah, played poker and drank—and moonshine.

Melanie
Yeah.

Donna
And the women tended to the house, milked the cows, did the garden—

Melanie
Went to church, raised the kids.

Donna
Everything else.

Melanie
All of it.

Donna
(01:31:04) How about I’ll sing you a song called Single Girl? It’s another funny ballad.

Melanie
And then, we’ll close out with Jerusalem Moan.

Donna
Jerusalem Moan—I reckoned. This song, I learned from Mary Jane Queen, and I remember how I was telling you that those are people signature songs? Well, this was her signature song, and I had planned on singing it when I was in college one day, and I only knew two ballads, and this was one of them. And Melanie goes, “You can’t sing that. Mary Jane’s going to be there.” I was like, “My God. Well, what am I supposed to sing?” Well, I went on stage, and she gave me her permission to sing her song.

Melanie
She just asked.

Donna
Yeah, I had to ask her. So, I asked her, and she did give me her permission. And this was when I was like eighteen or nineteen. She gave me her permission, and I’ll tell you what she said after I got—after I get that. Okay. (Singing)

When I was single, to marry was my crave.

By the way, this is dedicated to my Aunt Sharon.

Melanie
(Laughs)

Donna
She asked would I dedicate this to her even though she’s not here tonight? Okay, start over.

Melanie
She’s very single.

Donna
Yeah, very, very single.

Melanie
Very.

Partial Transcript: When I was single, to marry was my crave.
Now, I am married, I’m troubled to my grave.
I wish I was a single girl again.
Lord, Lord, don’t I wish I was a single girl again?

When I was single, he used to come to court,
He always brought me candy, and I thought he was a sport.
I wish I was a single girl again.
Lord, Lord, don’t I wish I was a single girl again?

When I was single, when dressed (inaudible)
Now, I am married, run ragged all the time.
I wish I was a single girl again.
Lord, Lord, don’t I wish I was a single girl again?

When I was single, I went where I pleased.
Now, I am married with a baby on each knee.
I wish I was a single girl again.
Lord, Lord, don’t I wish I was a single girl again?

The cows to milk, and the spring to go to.
A whole crowd of young’uns are crying after you.
I wish I was a single girl again.
Lord, Lord, don’t I wish I was a single girl again?

Now, I am married, I set me down to weep.
My husband chews tobacco and he snores in his sleep.
I wish I was a single girl again.
Lord, Lord, don’t I wish I was a single girl again?

Now, I am married, and what do you think?
He bought a checkered apron and he showed me to the sink.
I wish I was a single girl again.
Lord, Lord, don’t I wish I was a single girl again?

And mine and Melanie’s favorite verse:

When I was single, ate biscuits and pie,
Now, I am married. It’s eat corn bread or die.
I wish I was a single girl again.

Donna & Melanie
Lord, Lord, don’t I wish I was a single girl again?

Partial Transcript: Donna
Man, do you have to ask, really? (Laughs) I mean, how fantastic is this?

(Applause)

Melanie
May I ask you a question? How come—how come you’re here?

Donna
(Laughs)

Melanie
We’re all here to keep Mountain culture alive.

Donna
That’s right.

Melanie
I mean, now I don’t know how to milk a cow.

Donna
No, I don’t know to milk a cow.

Melanie
I’m a third-generation college graduate.

Donna
I could try to milk a cow. I don’t know how, but I’ll try. Maybe—I don’t know. I have to wear different shoes. It’d be—I don’t know. (Laughs)

Melanie
Any other questions?

Donna
Yes.

Female Speaker
(01:36:10) I’m not understanding why you guys don’t bring your—your ballads and your balladeering to other areas other than maybe the Mountains or—

Melanie
We do.

Donna
Yeah, we do.

Melanie
Mother travels all over the country.

Donna
Here’s the thing—

Melanie
And England—my father-in-law, Joe Penland, has been on tours in England.

Donna
—goes to England. Here’s where I’ve come to the conclusion of with this whole thing.

Melanie
No.



Donna
(01:36:37) My conclusion is that the way of the ballad-singing is not as popular as Bluegrass and such. We used to have spots at the Bascom Lamar Lunsford Festival in the evenings, and we don’t have any spots there because there’s no room for ballad singers—because everybody just wants to hear Bluegrass. Nobody wants to hear ballad singers. And so, I feel like there’s only enough room for a few of us to travel around and sing ballads. So, one day, Melanie and I, maybe will get to travel around and sing the ballads at some point.

Melanie
When my mother retires and lets some other people have a little bit of the work.

Donna
Sheila? Dang. But that’s—I mean, we really would, but you have to have people call and invite you to come. You can’t just go—like he invited us to come here tonight. (Applause) You know how—we could have just came and sat down here in the middle like—but you have to have some kind of PR person to—so—

Melanie
Now, mother’s all word of mouth.

Donna
Whatever. We don’t—but I mean, I feel like it really does have to do with the—it’s not as—I guess, what’s a good word I’m going to use? It’s not as—people don’t want it as much as they want Bluegrass.

Melanie
It’s an acquired taste.

Donna
It is.

Male Speaker
—in-demand.

Melanie
It’s not as in-demand.

Donna
That’s right.

Melanie
Great. Good job.

Donna
Any other questions?

Melanie
We—but—and in the end, I mean, I’m an academic to a certain extent, but we’re just living it. We’re just—it’s not our profession. I’m a stay-at-home mom. I’m also an assistant teacher. Donna’s an awesome saleswoman.

Donna
I sell cars.

Melanie
She sells cars. So, if anybody needs a car or card, she’s—she can help you out.

Donna
I got some. I work at (inaudible).

Melanie
So, tomorrow morning, I’ll have—

Donna
I’ll some of y’all later. (Laughs)

Melanie
I have to be at work at 7:45, and Donna has to be at work at 9:00. So, this is not our job.

Donna
No, we don’t have to do this.

Melanie
We love it.

Donna
We want to.

Melanie
And we appreciate the opportunity.

Donna
And we appreciate you guys.

Melanie
And we appreciate you guys giving this nice man money as you leave here, so that we can come back, or other people like us can come back and—and once again, y’all are sort of putting it in that—

Donna
Y’all are keeping the fires burning—keeping the fires burning.

Melanie
One more minute out of purgatory, folks.

Donna
That’s right. (All laughing) Speaking of religion—

Melanie
Yeah, speaking of religion—

Donna
We’re going to sing this religious ballad.

Melanie
(01:39:12) Back in the first part of the twentieth century, the Presbyterians came over to—to Madison County, and wanted to improve the schools. They wanted to—there was even a hospital over in Shelton Laurel. There was lots of interesting heritage. That’s actually how Cecil Sharpe managed to get here—was because he met Dan Campbell, and they were Presbyterians. My own husband’s grandparents—great grandparents were Presbyterian missionaries.

And that’s how they found Sodom as well. So, the Presbyterians brought music, which Cecil Sharp commented was not near the variety and beauty of the music that was already here. So, Cas Wallin, who is an uncle of ours—a great uncle of ours, took the tune of Jerusalem Moaning, and invented his own lyrics. At the very end, there’s also a—

Donna
A couple of added lyrics. This is one of those—yeah, there’s—this is one of those ballads that’s growing, and it’s start—it’s kind of a fresh one, and we keep adding to it.

Melanie
Yeah.

Donna
Timmy A. Bill, I think, wrote a verse in it. Sheila wrote a verse, and Melanie and I, actually wrote a verse, because—funny as it all came from the Presbyterians, there was no Presbyterian verse in this song.

Melanie
No, there was no Episcopalian.

Donna
Episcopalian. My God, I’m so bad at this religion thing. See? Well—so, we made an Episcopalian verse. But this is just kind of poking fun at our religion.

Melanie
And you all can actually hear my son singing a little bit of Jerusalem—the chorus of Jerusalem Moan. My sister-in-law, Loren Penland, was a—an intern with NPR, and she—how ballads changed over time, from knee-to-knee to knee-to-CD—the evolution of oral tradition and mountain ballads from December 2011.

So, if y’all want to go in there, you can see a picture of me and my son, and my mom. And Ezra’s actually singing some in that. So, it’s a really awesome thing. If you all want to get on there, I appreciate y’all coming, and we’re going to close out with Jerusalem Moan. If you know the chorus, or you—

Donna
Sing it with us.

Melanie
Feel free to sing.

Partial Transcript: Melanie
There’s a Baptist preacher, you can tell him by his coat.
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
He’s got a bottle in his pocket that he can hardly tote.
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan? Thank God.
There’s a song that’s-a-singing in my soul, and my soul’s set free.
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
Well, the Methodist priest, now, don’t you know?

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
That he never let a rooster get big enough to crow?

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan? Thank God.
There’s a song that’s-a-singing in my soul, and my soul’s set free.
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
Well, ‘em Holy Rollers there, all right.

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
They roll, they’ll tumble, they’ll kick out the lights.

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan? Thank God.
There’s a song that’s-a-singing in my soul, and my soul’s set free.
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
Well, ‘em Catholic priests, he’ll jingle his bell.

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
He’ll take ten dollars and pray out of purgatory—

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan? Thank God.
There’s a song that’s-a-singing in my soul, and my soul’s set free.
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
Well, ‘em TV evangelists, what can I say?

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
They’re raking in the money and-a-rolling in the hay—

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan? Thank God.
There’s a song that’s-a-singing in my soul, and my soul’s set free.
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
Well, them freewill Baptists locked, too, (??) for God.

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
Well, they have to get saved every other day.

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan? Thank God.
There’s a song that’s-a-singing in my soul, and my soul’s set free.
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Melanie
Well, them Episcopalians now don’t you know?

Donna & Melanie
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?

Donna
Well, come to think of it. There just ain’t nothing funny about Episcopalians.

(All laughing)



Melanie & Donna
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan? Thank God.
There’s a song that’s-a-singing in my soul, and my soul’s set free.
Don’t you hear Jerusalem moan?