Jamie Brandon Brown

Partial Transcript: I’m Jamie Brandon Brown. And I’m a native of Cocke County. Was born and grew up here, left for a number of years and went off to school, and came back. And about the time that I returned to Cocke County, I got real involved with the Dead Pigeon River Council. And so that’s my story of—I was gone for a few years, but consider this my home—always considered it my home.

Partial Transcript: They’re—since before Cocke County was actually a county. So my ancestors have been here forever. We were the Nay and Peter Fan who Fans Creek in North Carolina’s named after is how long our people have lived here.

Partial Transcript: My first memory of anything related to the river was just that it was a horrible, stinking, awful mess. And when I was five, my father had also grown up here. And he was very bothered by the river. And I can remember from the time I was a very, very small child him talking about the river and how wrong it was. And so I heard—had heard the name Champion and the problems with the river from the time I was born probably. But when I was five years old he took me to the headwaters of the river, the Pigeon River, and allowed me to get a drink of water, showed me what it was like, brought me down the river, and showed me where the Cherokee had had their area that was considered recreational—whatever they called it—retreat at that time, which was still beautiful because of course, they call this the Beautiful Maiden. And then he brought us down. I don’t remember anybody that was with us except my father and I was so focused during that time on just what he was doing with me. And he brought me on down and showed me the fact that the Champion officials that came in from the north had this recreation area that they also used the river and it was still beautiful.
And then we went to the plant. And he showed me the plant. And then he took me below the river where all of a sudden everything changed drastically. And even though I was five years old it never left me. It just never left me. I think that anytime I go back my father was quite an environmentalist although he wouldn’t have seen himself that way. He saw himself as just a native Cocke Countynier that happened to hunt and fish. But he was very bothered any time anything in nature was destroyed or mishandled in any way. So that influence he had on me and particularly at that young age just really stuck with me. So when I came back home in my late twenties after been away at school for quite a while, I got involved with Bobby Sea and Gay Webb, and Jerry Wild, and, uh, Frank Hederman, and all the good folks with the Dead Pigeon River Council and turned my concern and caring and sympathy where the river was concerned, hopefully, into some activism.

Partial Transcript: We would never have been allowed to go near it. As a matter of fact, if anybody that was our friends were near it I remember saying I cannot believe they let that boy get down there on a rafter. I cannot believe they let one of their animals get in that river. It was horrible. It was black. It was not tea-colored. It was more like coffee color. It had foam everywhere you looked, in particular, if there was any like little islands or any uh, uh, any kind of vegetation it would gather around. Any wood that was out there it would gather around. It stuck. You knew the minute that you entered the community, you know, people would go, What is that? It was just, in my mind as I grew older, particularly the time I guess I was even a teenager, I realized that probably what should have been our greatest resource was our greatest liability in the community.

Partial Transcript: Dole Sutton, who lived close up to the North Carolina line, told stories all the time about his family and he was one of my father’s best friends and hunting and fishing buddies. I said I was grown before I knew he wasn’t my uncle. And he told many stories. And from the time I was a child up till the time that he died I stayed in very close contact with him. And he told many stories about how beautiful the place was. Not that he had seen it. He wouldn’t even remember what it was like before it was, you know when it was still pure. But told about how people were in shock. They had this beautiful, pristine river that they could use for everything and anything. They could swim, fish, drink, anything from it.
And then one day this big, black cloud just came down through the middle of the river. And it was like they thought the world was ending. It was just, you know, it was a horrible thing like something from hell had come down the river. And so that—but he told many stories about older folks and how they remembered what happened with the river and how scary it was. It wasn’t just that a natural resource was destroyed. It was just it was scary to them.

Partial Transcript: It—you know it varied that it definitely harmed the economy because over the years you’ve had people come in and look at this community to think about bringing their businesses here. And you get a smell of the river, you got a look at the river. And all of a sudden people’s interest wanes. No one is interested in bringing businesses here. So it was a problem. People that lived along the river and needed water it became a horror because their animals didn’t want to drink from it. Most of them didn’t, and if they did, we had all kinds of pockets of cancer, particularly up toward Hartford where this was the water supply. And if the animals did drink from it we all know that if a cow drinks something and it goes straight through them to the milk. And so people would turn around and drink the milk. We had people here that would continue, as long as there were fish in it, to still fish it. Eventually, there were no fish. But they would still try to fish it and not know. And I know that at one time, where I live now on the river, there was actually a pond there because there was a natural spring and they pond did up. And they would, unknowingly, put the fish in that pond thinking that if they could leave it in there for a period of time that they would become clean enough to eat. So they think if they just the fact that they were in the spring water that they might be clean enough to eat. So there was a whole lot of people trying to figure out something to do because they still needed the river.
The other sad thing was—and it happened in Western North Carolina as well as this Tennessee. Because the river was so dirty people just started putting their sewage systems right into the river too because it was nasty anyway. So there was a lot of things that happened that certainly didn’t help the river and the health of the river. The river’s still beautiful. It’s always been beautiful. It’s just very sick; hopefully getting better.

Partial Transcript: Absolutely. And everybody—it was just like anything else that happens. You know, if you start seeing people throwing trash somewhere, other people start throwing trash there. The same thing began to happen with the river. You even had people sewage systems going right into the river.

Partial Transcript: The river was the lifeblood of the community in that area. And everything that I’ve heard from Dole and others was that it was used for everything. And again, it was absolutely beautiful. It looked more like a huge creek than it did like a river because this is not a large river, you know. It’s a fairly small river. And so it was used for a little bit of everything. And so it was a real change in life in terms of what the people had to get accustomed to after Champion polluted the river.

Partial Transcript: The immediate effect was just this horrible mess that came down the river. And it took people I think a while to figure out even what was going on. And there was a period of time where, I think around the ‘20s, which was probably fifteen, twenty years after the plant opened, that there was some activism around it. Some of the people in Knoxville were very upset because they actually were eventually drinking the water because where the water came down. Of course, it didn’t look as bad by the time it got there. But they were concerned about it. But what happened was that it’s happened consistently and over a hundred years that the river has been polluted. There’s activism will rise and people will get very upset and try to do something. And then the corporation ends up winning and so they pull back. And it really wasn’t until the Clean Water Act was used and EPA finally got involved with a huge amount of pressure from a whole of folks on both sides of the North Carolina and Tennessee border that we really began to see any cleanup at all.

Partial Transcript: Well, Dick Molyneux has to be given credit for a huge amount of the work that went on related to the Pigeon. He lived on the North Carolina side. And he was the one that carried the banner and held the standard for trying to get everyone involved. And he helped the Dead Pigeon River Council a great deal and the work that they did. I guess the Dead Pigeon River Council was the first truly, fully organized group in Tennessee to take on from a kind of legislative, political, and environmental scientific, everything that we could pull together kind of study. And I wasn’t there in the very beginning because I wasn’t living here yet. But they really did make a name for themselves in terms of people were like, Oh no. It’s them. And if that’s what had to happen, you know. If the Dead Pigeon River Council hadn’t become the, Oh no. It’s them again, then I’m not sure a lot would have happened on this side. They were the ones that had a lot of influence on government order. And we also credit him because he was the one—was the first governor that really got involved with the river. Everybody, no matter what happened—and we saw this happen over and over again with officials even in Tennessee—we would think we have their attention, things would be, you know, seemed to go in the right direction, and then all of a sudden there was just this pullback. Someone got to them. You know, eventually, somebody got to them. Champion had deep pockets; a lot of influence. And eventually, they would pull back.
At one time Al Gore was very involved with the river, of course, that’s long before his days of becoming a complete environmentalist. But he pushed it one time. But Magruder was the first politician that really, really helped us. And it was interesting that he was pushed to the point that he went over to the North Carolina side and was looking at the plant and the river. And he decided he was just going to get a canoe and get in the river, which he did do. And they called all kinds of law enforcement to come in because Tennessee’s governor was on Champion’s river was the story that was told. And of course, that didn’t sit very well with the Tennessee Governor either. But he did give us a great deal of help about attention to the matter and stood up and said, you know, before that everything that had happened they would say they would stand up, and then when it came down to it they kind of, I think North Carolina would threaten Tennessee that they had things that were also polluting and they would catapult back. And it’s wrong. The pollution shouldn’t have gone on anywhere. But Magruder was the first governor to really help us.

Partial Transcript: I think it’s Pigeon River Action Group, but I’m not sure. Dick Molyneux and the Pigeon River Action Group started early when nobody was listening to anybody. And bless his heart. I mean all the stories that I’ve heard. I met him after he was an older man. But all the stories that I’ve heard is that poor man was standing all by himself most of the time just, you know, preaching that this had to stop, this had to stop. And he fought everybody tooth and toenail in North Car—he would go to hearings that nobody else even knew about. And so by the time that we came along with the Dead Pigeon River Council—and he helped us so much—I’m sure he was glad to have somebody on this side that was making a lot of noise and was supporting what he had been doing. But he has to be given any credit that is due for the cleanup of the river. That man, for so long, single-handedly tried his best to do everything he could to bring North Carolina’s attention to the river.

Partial Transcript: The school systems in North Carolina, the park systems were uh, funded by Champion. They gave money to help those communities. Not only did they pay excellent salaries, they also did a lot for the community. We were offered money on this side to be quiet. And we told our officials, That’s blood money. We don’t want it. You know. We really push not to ever accept any Champion money on this side of the border for that reason. But, you know, you had I think years ago, even in the ‘80s the average salary was $40- or $50,000 a year, which, you know, here, was like probably $8- or $9,000 a year at that time. So we’re talking about a huge difference in what people’s standard of living was. So naturally, people were upset.
And I remember one time I saw a cartoon that someone had done where a woman was standing outside the plant and the plant was shut down. And they said That’s where my father used to work. Of course, they’re wearing rags and tatters etcetera. And all I could think about was, well, that’s the way we live. Anybody here that goes off to get an education usually doesn’t come back. You know, I did come back. But I’ve never made a living in Cocke County. I’ve always had to go somewhere else to work. That’s unusual. Mostly, unless you’re a teacher or an attorney, or a physician, there’s no jobs in Cocke County for people that are educated.
So they would leave, get their education, and stay away. So we had a brain drain on top of the fact that we also—and separating extended families. One of the things when they brought Carol Browner with the EPA several years ago in the ‘90s and wanted us to talk with her about what had happened to this community. And one of the things I told her was this Appalachian culture is founded on extended families. And Champion had single-handedly torn that unit apart for our community because the extended family couldn’t exist here unless you stayed and lived in poverty. You know if you got an education you couldn’t come back here and work. There was nothing to do where you could make a living unless you wanted to drive over an hour away. And so it really did change—it literally kept grandparents from their grandchildren and great-grandchildren because of the fact there was no way to make a living here. So what Canton enjoyed and thought was their God-given right we had never had. So it was a little hard for people on this side—it’s not that we wished them ill will or we didn’t want them to have jobs. But it’s hard to feel sorry for somebody that ever had something that we never had the opportunity to have.
The other thing that you can look at, and this is kind of a blessing and a curse, you look at Sevierville and Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg. They don’t have anything that Cocke County doesn’t have except the river. So here they are thriving, you know, with all types of tourism and environmental tourism and everything else when we struggle. And, again, the only thing we’ve got that they don’t have is the river. And again, I say that’s a blessing and a curse because a lot of us would like to keep this the quiet side of the mountains. We’d like to have this the clean side of the mountain. We’d like to have this without all the traffic. And we’ve been much more interested in ecotourism than anything else. But at the same time, that’s really kept us from being able to even make a living off our natural resources and the beauty of the area because of the river. Not only just industry but also tourism.

Partial Transcript: I got involved for two reasons. First of all, the memory of my father’s trip at age five and the impact that it had on me all these years and running into Bobby Sea. And if you meet Bobby Sea he is quite persuasive. And it didn’t take any time at all till I was right in the middle of everything that was happening because he has a way of pulling you in and bringing out the best in you when it comes to these matters. So Bobby Sea is the reason I got involved. And since then I just consider Bobby and Gay Webb two of my best friends and inspirations because of the work they’ve done. We’ve lost almost every human that was a member of the Dead Pigeon River Council. But most of them die from cancers. But they’re all gone now. And there’s just this handful of us left.

Partial Transcript: Well, from the beginning they—they’re quite the not what you would expect in an environmentalist duo. Gay’s always been kind of a farm person and a businessman in the area. And Bobby was the director of the Chamber of Commerce. And we used to laugh because we said as long as Bobby was the director of commerce we kind of had a place for non-profits to run because he saw the value, particularly in a community where you don’t have a lot of resources that non-profits can make a huge amount of difference. So at least all that is not counter to business but actually an enhancement to what we had in the community. So the entire time he was executive director we saw great activities in non-profits and trying to help people understand what was going on. So it wasn’t just the Dead Pigeon River Council. It was a lot of things that Bobby did for the community during that time.
But one thing that I have always said—and this comes not—this is not Bobby and Gay’s words, but I get this from the work that they’ve done. In everything related to this community, it really comes down to this river. Which side are you on? If you’re on the side of either not worrying about it, looking the other way or being willing to be influenced by Champion through money or resources or whatever they have to offer, then you’re on the wrong side of Cocke County. And if you’re on the right side of the river, you’re on the right side of Cocke County wanting your claim, wanting just to be right for our future generations. I just hope that before every member of the Dead Pigeon River Council is gone, that we will see the river clean. It’s better, but I think I told you that my husband and I bought a farm that’s right on the Pigeon River. And it’s just in the last year. And as a result of that, we watch the water every day. And he came out one day and he said, “Look! Look! Look!” And I went out. You could see to the bottom. Well, sure enough, they hadn’t been running for a few days. So you see how quickly—now that doesn’t mean all the poisons and all the chemicals are gone. But the river could heal so quickly if the plant weren’t there.

Partial Transcript: We’ve been to Washington. We’ve been to Nashville many, many times, different ones of us. We have held rallies. When Champion was doing their picnic we showed up on that side of the river complete with young people. We have—it’s been a multifaceted approach. We’ve done a little bit of everything. One of things that we’ve always done is get together and create press releases when we know something’s coming down the road particularly when the hearings are coming up and the reasons that we need the rest of the community to be involved. We have had parades. We have participated even in the Christmas parade here as something that’s not quite uplifting as Christmas. But we have done everything we can and again a real multifaceted approach. Some of it is just two or three of us sitting around working on something, and sometimes it’s pulling groups of people together.
The first thing that was done when the Dead Pigeon River Council was formed was that Bobby got a group together. And they went down on the river on New Year’s eve and declared the Pigeon dead. And that was, what. I guess in the early ‘80s—in the early ‘80s declared the Pigeon dead. And that’s how the Dead Pigeon River Council was formed. And then they were sitting around. And Nelson Ross, who was with the Isaac Walton League and stationed over in Jefferson County in Carson Newman was sitting there kind of sketchy. And then a bird upside down, you know, like it was dead. And then they came up with the logo and the Dead Pigeon River Council as part of—so it was kind of just—it was very organic the way it all grew. It really was.

Partial Transcript: To call attention to the fact that the Pigeon was not only polluted but dead to us and this community and to do everything that we could to see the Pigeon clean, whatever it took. Again, we would prefer the plant not have to close for those folks, but in my opinion, if I a res—natural resource used it ought to have to come out of the plant the same way it went in; the same color, the same temperature, the same cleanliness. That’s not—that is not their resource. It is the state’s resource and we’re downriver from that state. And it should be—they should not be allowed to use it unless it comes out exactly the way it goes in. And the man that owns the plant now in New Zealand, they have extremely stringent guidelines in terms of what they can and can’t do. He could not run this plant in New Zealand, the one’s that running it here now. It would not be allowed.

Partial Transcript: I think the coloring units is probably where we really—when we finally got the EPA to listen and come in and take over the permitting process because North Carolina, of course, was going to allow them to do what they wanted to do. And so when the EPA came in, there was a big argument because of the fact Tennessee did not have a color unit standard for streams. It was just it should be objectionable. And so there was a big fight over us asking North Carolina to have the color unit standard when we didn’t. But the EPA came in and sided with us and the other groups that had also taken them to task and said that fifty colored units. Of course, there’s always been this fight ever since then; back and forth over where it would occur at the pipe or whether it would occur down at Waterville Lake after everything had come together. There’s always been this contention since then and never been completely resolved. But the water has gotten progressively cleaner since then in appearance, not necessarily in chemical content, but at least in terms of appearance.

Partial Transcript: That’s right. That was a big eye-opener. And one of the things that struck me first; I left here during my childbearing years. And I have four children. I have a lot of friends that didn’t leave here during their childbearing years, my sister being one of them that have no children. Some of them have one and they have serious issues like endometriosis. Well, there’s not good research evidence with correlation between humans and our oxen. But with animals and our oxen, it’s clear. The research is very clear that it causes infertility and endometriosis-like characteristics in animals. So it’s not been much of a leap for me that all these young women that I knew—now they’re not so young—that were not to able to have children. And so dioxin became a huge thing with us.
And I know that Champion worked with some folks to bring in a group from the Olympics and bring them down on the river, which we were in favor of up to a certain extent because they trying to get white water rafting going here. But they didn’t tell those athletes the truth. And so we’ve decided that we need to appear with all of our brochures and our handouts and our t-shirts and our discussions to tell them what was going on. And the first thing they say is, What is that smell? What is that foul—because it was still there. And it wasn’t gone. And so they realized that this wasn’t like any stream that they, the Olympians had been on. So they knew something was going on. And we were very happy to tell them. And we got mixed reviews that evening with our own people here. Because some people thought at that time that we needed to be quiet; that we were beginning the opportunity to do the white water rafting, which I'm very much in favor of. I think that has helped us get the river cleaner. But at the same time, we had to tell the truth. We had to make sure that no, it’s not acceptable. It’s not.

Partial Transcript: There’s been a class act—and I’m not as much of an expert on that. But I will tell you that we have prevailed at least twice in the class action suits. And that that is one of the, of course, you know, it is a victory. It is a victory for homeowners the fact that we were able to file lawsuits and win and that someone did agree with us. It wasn’t just the money. It was the fact that we were agreed with. And the landowners did recoup some money and the lawyers got more. But the truth was that I think it was as much an affirmation through the fact that we sided with. They said yes that they did not have the right to do this. Of course, on the downside it was peanuts to them that, you know, even though it sounded like it was millions of dollars to Champion that was, you know, just a cost of doing business. They’re a huge company. And it may make a difference now. I don’t know. This man I think that owns the plant now has also got deep pockets. I don’t know that he has deep pockets that Champion had in the ‘80s and earlier, but they have deep pockets.

Partial Transcript: They—all of the companies, starting with Champion, were always saying that they would do whatever they could feasibly, economically, and also as far as how much technology was available. And Steve Harges did a great deal of research on what was available and has known for decades that the technology was available that they could have put in at any point. They just chose not to spend the money. Now, one of the things that Champion would always claim is they would do retooling and improvements to the plant, which had to be done anyway. And they would claim that that was one of their efforts and money that they had spent to clean the river. But in truth was it was money that had to be spent anyway. And they never ever did the most cutting-edge technology. They never did do what needed to happen. And I don’t know if anybody spoken to this or not, but this is a small river.
The Pigeon River is a very small river, and Champion knew when they opened that plant that this river would have a difficult time carrying the payload that would carrying that pollution away at any level. So it’s been very upsetting just to find out that they knew from the beginning. But it was too much of enticement that we were so close to lumber sources and that they didn’t have to go so far to get their pulp for the paper mill. So that was the enticement being on the Pigeon from the beginning. But it’s never been a large enough river to carry what it’s been asked to carry. And there is technology that could decrease the temperature even further, color units, and also to re—at one time they were removing some of the solids and some of the poison from, but then there was the question of what they were doing with it. You know, I don’t what they were doing with it. But there was a lot of questions about what they did with it during that time. And then I think they finally quit and just started running it back through again.

Partial Transcript: Yes. And again, that goes back to—I will not credit the paper mill for any success because they have fought us every step of the way. You have to go back to the people that originally—probably the people in the ‘20s that we don’t even remember their names—who began to say, This is wrong and then Dick Molyneux who I think has, you know, did yeoman’s work on terms of trying to get this river clean. And then the people that have followed with the Dead Pigeon River Council. And by the way, the kids that are in CWEET now that you probably are hearing from as well and interviewing, they were our kids. We were carrying them over the river when they were in grade school and high school with the t-shirts we’d made. And boy, does that feel good to look at those kids. It feels so good to look at CWEET and to know how many of those kids got it. You know they got it and they carried it on because that’s the only hope you’ve got. And I know that the two young men that started CWEET years ago came to some of us and said, You know we want to start an organization, but we don’t want to offend you all. What would you think? And we were like going, Oh, that wonderful. Do it. You don’t need to be the Dead Pigeon River Council phase two. You need to be your own organization and take this matter on in your own way and do it in your own way. And Brian Overholt and Seth Smith were the two young men that started the organization. And Brian did a wonderful documentary that if you don’t have it I’ll see if we can get a hold of a copy for you.
It’s CWEET is Clean Water Expected in East Tennessee. And again, it was Brian Overholt and Seth Smith that started it. And then they kind of went their own ways and were doing other things. And some of the other young people stepped up and said, We don’t want to see this go. So they came in and revitalized and took it over and have just done a great job. So that’s been very affirming; that to see these younger people that were, you know, just kids. When we’ve started doing a lot of this work some of them were not even born yet that are involved now take it on in such a serious way and be dedicated to it.

Partial Transcript: Yes. The white water rafting has been a very big economic boom to Cocke County. And you wouldn’t think that something like that would be, because I think there’s twelve companies I think that have licenses. But they have made a huge difference in the economy here. I mean there’s a —we get a good amount—I think we’re still getting two dollars a person for everybody that goes down the river. And that’s made a huge difference here, you know. I’m not saying we’re not still a poor, somewhat depressed community. We are. But it has helped. It’s really helped. And also now what I have seen in more recent years, for one thing’s, a lot of the little activists—younger activists are also guides on the river. So we have seen where instead of this push and pull between the people that are rafting as opposed to the activists you see a real marriage. And you see them really working together. And I have to again go back to Seth Smith and Brian Overholt because Seth at that time was a river guide. And he started CWEET with his friends. And that really did begin to do a lot of the healing in terms of that they saw that well, we just want it cleaner, you know. We don’t want to call negative attention in any way to the river. We just want it cleaner. We want it to be right.

Partial Transcript: Yeah. If we had not called attention—I think they were in shock that we were as well organized as we were. You know they didn’t really think that we could get to—for one thing, I think they discredit this because we seemed like the poor kind of ignorant cousins on the other side of the mountain that weren’t very with it. So I think it really shocked them when we got as organized as we did.

Partial Transcript: For one thing, we’ve lost so many of them. They are so—we have lost so many people that if we don’t—if we don’t honor the work that they did, if we don’t pay attention, and, you know, I use people’s names a lot because I want us to remember those folks that came before us that were fighting this fight just as hard or harder than any of us have fought it. And they’re no longer with us. And you know, they didn’t get to see the river when completely clean and clear. Some of us are getting to see it look a lot better and hopefully look even better, you know, in the next several years. But it’s so many people had their heart and soul in this. And at one time somebody asked me that was here—a community person said, “Well, aren’t there those of you that are in the Dead Pigeon River Council just a bunch of landowners?” Well in the first place, no. We weren’t. I didn’t live along the river. A lot of us didn’t live along the river. Bobby Seal didn’t live along the river, didn’t own any property along the river. But we cared about the river. And there were a few of us that did. And the other part of it was, so what? You know that is there property that has been destroyed as a result of this river. So, you know, again that was a local criticism that somebody had started kind of this thing that was just landowners, which it never had been just landowners. And, even if it were landowners, they had every right to organize and be upset about what was going on with the river.

Partial Transcript: Well, one thing’s they’ve—one of the things they’ve learned is they have a voice and they can use it. And when they say something that is dishonorable or is not right or is an infringement on the environment they are using those voices. One thing’s I’ve been thrilled about they are actively involved in doing testing on the river, which is wonderful. You know, we’ve always pushed for testing. They’re actually doing testing on the river. So they’re learning with their science skills and their activist voices. And then we have artists that we’re telling the story right now of the Pigeon River through a group of us that have been meeting with one of the local artists and she’s doing the drawings and we’re telling the story. So it’s really nice to see all that come together; the signs, the arts, the activism has just all come together in such a nice way. And these younger people have managed to do that. They’re the ones that have managed to pull all of that together.

Partial Transcript: Oh. What I would like to see is this river as beautiful and pristine as it was always meant to be and as it was in 1900. You know, just to see the river run clear and to see people be able to fish anytime they want to, and eat the fish; to be able to swim. To have baptisms in the river if that's what they want to do. To have family picnics along the river. So it would just be the natural, God-given river resource that it was just meant to be and the asset to this community that it’s meant to be.

Partial Transcript: It would be one of two things; either to completely retool that factory till the water came out the same way it went in, or to shut it down. And I’ll just say it. Some people won’t say it. If they can’t do it right, they need to go. They need to be shut down. Because the options are out there. Canada does it. Other places do it.